Intentional Well-Being Podcast - Dr. Lisa Folden

Dianne:
Hello, and welcome to The Intentional Well-Being Podcast. I’m your host, Dianne Bondy. And I created this podcast because I want people to start thinking about well-being as an accessible part of their everyday life.

Dianne:
I think we get convoluted in the idea of wellness versus well-being. Wellness has become highly commercialized and co-opted to mean that you have to go out and get a manicure or a pedicure, or take a vacation, or go on retreat. And if you can afford to do those things, I say power to you. Go on and get your wellness on.

Dianne:
But for those of us who need more conventional ways of taking care of our well-being, this is the podcast to help you step into the wholeness of yourself through your own personalized experience of well-being, which might be joyful, mindful movement, or eating your favorite foods, or having a Kiki with one of your best friends. This is about taking your well-being into your own hands.

Dianne:
And today, I want to welcome to the podcast Dr. Lisa Folden. Dr. Lisa Folden is a physiotherapist that resides in the Charlotte, North Carolina area. She is a licensed physical therapist and a mom-focused lifestyle coach. Using her skills as a movement expert, Dr. Folden helps clients recover from orthopedic and neurological injuries at her private practice.

Dianne:
And as a women’s health and body positive Health At Every Size ambassador, Dr. Folden assists women in seeking healthier lifestyle and guiding their wellness choices through organization, planning strategies, and holistic goal setting. So she’s out here helping busy moms and everyone else find what their top priorities are and find their own personal access to well-being.

Dianne:
So join Dr. Lisa and myself for a conversation where we discuss HAES, where we discuss what it’s like to seek wellness in a place where wellness can often be expensive and inaccessible, and how HAES has changed our relationship with our body, and may also help you find peace and well-being. Thanks for joining us.

Dianne:
Hello. Hello. I am welcoming to The Intentional Well-Being Podcast today, Dr. Lisa Folden. And I met you, “met”, and I’m putting that in air quotations, on Instagram, because you were one of the only fat-friendly, HAES-informed, physical therapist and well-being matriarchal mavens. That’s what I’m calling you.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
I love that.

Dianne:
Right. Matriarchal maven. And I said this to you earlier before we were recording, and I think it bears repeating, I wish in my life when I was coming up as a little black girl, that I could have had somebody like you in my corner when I was struggling with my body image as a teenager and as a young adult. Because the people that I encountered didn’t actually help me overcome my hatred of my body. They actually inspired me to find new ways to damage my body because there was like a cultural [inaudible 00:03:34], right?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Yeah, definitely. Thank you for that.

Dianne:
Yeah. I am overwhelmed and grateful that you’ve agreed to be on the podcast and that you’re out there forward-facing doing this incredible work. I’m just, I’m really grateful for this. And thank you for joining me today. I love that you’re forward, you’re out there, you’re HAES-informed. And if anybody’s not aware of what HAES is, it’s Health At Every Size, which is a really important thing to start thinking about. And I’m happy to see a general shift in the way that we’re looking at our bodies.

Dianne:
And like I said before, I’m grateful to have you in this space because you are going to be so influential for young folks coming up and for new folks coming up and for people of color everywhere. Because rarely do I see a person of color or a black woman in a position where they can influence the way people feel about their health. I’m grateful you’re here, and I’m a huge fan of your work.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Thank you so much for having me, and I feel the exact same way about you.

Dianne:
Thank you. Thank you. Tell me, how did you get started in this work? What inspired you to be a HAES-informed physical therapist out here sharing? I love all the stuff that you put out. It really gives people time for pause. I really love to share your stuff on my page because I think it makes a difference.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Thank you. So I became a physical therapist in 2007. And I was trained, just like the rest of us are in the healthcare world, over here in the United States, so very much not HAES-informed, very much pro-diets very much, you’re having a lot of joint pain, and you’re overweight, you should probably lose some weight. So that is a school of thought that I came from just naturally.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
But I had the same body struggles that started as early as 11 and all the way up into my 30s. And, honestly, I just became fed up because I knew something was wrong and something just didn’t make sense.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
And so, it was a little bit before the pandemic, I stumbled upon Dr. Lindo Bacon and the book Health At Every Size. So it literally started, the Health At Every Size movement, for me, started with the Health At Every Size book. I was always compassionate with my patients and my clients in trying to get them to focus on things outside of the scale and to really love and care for themselves. I’ve always been a big advocate for self-care, but I was still very much wrapped up in diet culture because I was born and bred in it.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
And so, when I read that book, my life changed, it was just so eye-opening to, one, understand how the wool had been put over our eyes for so long. And then to just really recognize all these health matrix and things that we thought were important really didn’t speak to our actual physical health.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
So I went down rabbit hole deep. I did. I read Health At Every Size. I read Body Respect. I read Radical Belonging. I read Intuitive Eating. I’m rereading Intuitive Eating now and getting my certification so that I can actually be an Intuitive Eating counselor.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
And it was a big snowball effect. It was one little thing, and then it just kept going, and I wanted to learn more, and connect more. And now my entire platform is really dedicated to this work because it is as much of a passion for me now as physical therapy is.

Dianne:
Wow.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
It’s just as important because I’ve definitely been in a position, I don’t know if you saw some of my posts from a week or two ago that I was doing an apology thread because I’ve definitely been in a position where my status as a healthcare professional, I caused harm. So instead of helping people who were in larger bodies, I furthered the harm.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
And so, like I said, this has become more of the center focus of what I do. And so, yes, it’s incorporated into my physical therapy practice, my health coaching, my day-to-day living. And it’s made a huge impact on me, and then my clients as well, and hopefully anybody who follows me.

Dianne:
I love that. I had a very similar relationship with the book Health At Every Size. I was moved to tears within the first like 36 pages. And what I love about Health At Every Size is that the evidence that Dr. Lindo Bacon shares in her book is peer-reviewed science evidence-based.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Absolutely.

Dianne:
Right. This is knowledge that has been around for decades that has kind of been swept under the rug, and that we’ve really created a lot of harm. And I feel the same way too in my teaching. I always had the same kind of understanding that, how is it that I’m in this plus size body? I eat the same as my friends. I move the same way my friends move, and my body just shakes down like this. No matter what I do, this is what my body looks like.

Dianne:
And it wasn’t until I read that book that I stopped the fight with my body that this is what my body does. I run, I cycle, I do yoga. I started a Pilates journey during the pandemic. I do all these things, and yet there’s this measurement of my height divided by my weight or some such nonsense that determines my health. And it says that my health is bad when my blood pressure is low and my blood sugar is good and I’m moving and I’m doing all the things that everybody else is doing, but this is what my body looks like.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
That’s [crosstalk 00:09:11].

Dianne:
And it was such a relief not to stop fighting with your body. So for those of you who are not familiar with Dr. Lindo Bacon, we will put the link in the show notes. I had a moment where I was at NEDIC, which here in Canada is the National Eating Disorders Information Center. And they do a big conference every couple years, and she was a guest speaker.

Dianne:
And I was standing in line, and I saw that she was sitting having lunch by herself. And like the fan girl that I was, because that book really did change my life, I dropped everything I was carrying and ran over to her and was like, “Oh my gosh,” and she was like, “Whoa.” I do that to a lot of people. She’s like, “Whoa, I’m just a regular person,” and all this kind of stuff.

Dianne:
But I just wanted to let her know the impact that her research and putting this book together meant for those of us who struggle to fit into an idealized-sized body that doesn’t actually exist.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Absolutely. I would’ve done the same thing. And just to clarify, when Dr. Bacon wrote that book, her pronoun was she and her, and it was Linda Bacon. And they are now Dr. Lindo Bacon, and so I want to make sure that we respect her, their pronouns now.

Dianne:
Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
But I would have done the exact thing because I feel the same way. Within the first couple chapters, I was like “Uh,” and it was so affirming to know we are not wrong. There’s nothing wrong with us. It moved me, and it made me want to tell so many other people because there’s not a day that I don’t engage and interact with someone who is still very much in the diet culture mentality.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
And my goal isn’t to change everyone’s minds, but if I can just introduce them gently to a different way of thinking and just get their interest piqued… Like the people around me now, my husband is listening in, my sister, people are now like, “Huh,” and very much open to the thought.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
So even if I just get you primed where the next time you hear about HAES or anything in that anti-diet world, you’re more attuned to it, and you’re more interested in learning, then I’ve done my job. But I feel the exact same way. Just Dr. Bacon has been a huge part of this journey for me, for sure.

Dianne:
Absolutely. And I encourage people to check that book out if you’re struggling with diet culture. Do you get a lot of pushback from folk? Like I notice sometimes in the social media world when you start putting up information, I don’t know if you saw our good friend, Jessamyn Stanley, was on the front of Self magazine this month. At the time of this recording, she’s on the front of Self magazine. And the amount of pushback she got for showing a different version of what healthy can look like, have you experienced any pushback like that?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Absolutely. My pushback is more, it’s less about my body per se. I guess if you don’t know me, I probably would identify as a midsize person. I’m definitely not thin, but I think most people would not categorize me as fat. I have rolls. I have hips. I have cellulite. Things jiggle.

Dianne:
Yeah. Like everybody. Like everybody. Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Right. Right.

Dianne:
Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
And I’m proud of that. So I don’t get as much pushback and hate on me directly toward my body. But the statements that I make, oh, I get people… And 99% of the time, they’re trolls because their pages look like no posts, no picture, weird stuff. But, yes, I get tons of pushback.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
And then, I do get some reasonable people that just are confused, like what does this mean? I had another physical therapist reach out to me. She’s actually a pelvic health therapist. And she was like, “Listen, I’m not trying to challenge you, but do you mean everything we’ve been taught is wrong?” And I was like, “Yes.” Short answer, yes.

Dianne:
Yes.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
“Let me tell you why.” And so, I appreciate those engagements. I’m very happy to have those conversations. But, yes, I definitely get pushback. I definitely get people saying, “Well, what does that mean? I should just sit around eating pizza all day?” I’m like, “No one ever said that.” Health At Every Size does not mean lay on the couch and eat from a supine position and never move your body. That’s literally the opposite of what we’re promoting and engaging.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
So most of the pushback I get is from, I would say, people coming from a more ignorant standpoint, like not really giving the movement the thought that it deserves. It’s just like, “Oh, that just means to be lazy and fat.” And it’s like, okay, you’re not really the type of person whose mind I can change or who I can enlighten with this information. So I’m just going to… Listen, I have the right, sometimes I respond, sometimes I don’t.

Dianne:
Yeah, it goes back to, today, I have time, and today I don’t have time, and sometimes I just don’t want to be bothered, right?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Absolutely. And sometimes it’s just block and bless and block and bless.

Dianne:
I love that.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Sometimes it’s like, blocked and blessed.

Dianne:
Yeah, exactly. And it’s your page. What people seem to forget is-

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Absolutely.

Dianne:
… It is a public platform. We are on a public platform, but this is still a private page. And if I don’t care for your comments, I don’t have to allow them on my page. You are not entitled to my space. You are not entitled to my labor. You are not entitled to my work.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Yes.

Dianne:
I choose to share it here, and if you want to engage with it in a way that’s going to be thoughtful… We don’t have to agree to be thoughtful, but if you’re going to be trolling, is this what you do with your time? Really? Could you redirect your energy into something helpful and useful? Is this what you’re doing with your time?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Absolutely.

Dianne:
I feel you on that. Sometimes I have time, and other times, I’m very fortunate, I have something I call the D Squad, and they’ll just come in and deal with whoever’s acting the fool on my page. And I just go, “Okay, you know what? Today, I don’t feel like it. I’m going to leave it alone and see if anybody else streams it.” And more often than not, another professional who has time, we’ll try to enlighten people. But what I’ve come to realize in my own platform and in my own world is that I’m not here to change anybody’s mind. I’m not.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Nope. I say that all the time, absolutely.

Dianne:
Right? I’m not here to change anybody’s mind. I’m going to present you with the facts that are based in science that are peer-studied, peer-reviewed, come from a reputable source, and you can make your own decisions based on that information. And if it doesn’t fit with you, great, and keep it pushing, keep it moving. I’m not here to argue with you. I don’t have the energy. I don’t have the bandwidth. What I’m here to do is help folks who have been struggling their whole lives with body image, with movement, with injuries, to find a new, kinder way to be in their bodies. And why is that so hard for people to accept?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Yes. Why? You know what? I don’t typically even give them enough thought, but I recently did think about why. And I think I know why. I think that it assaults a part of them. Because in this culture, in this society, we’ve turned fitness and the aesthetic appearance of fitness into this moral badge of honor.

Dianne:
Yes.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
And when you tell someone who, in many cases, some people are just born thin, right?

Dianne:
Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
And they just kind of live with those genetics. But there are a lot of people who work really hard to be thin.

Dianne:
Yes.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
And they treat it like any other job or any other project or any other task, and they throw their soul and their lives into this maintenance of this aesthetic. And so, when you assault that, when you say like, “You don’t have to look like that to be healthy, and there’s nothing wrong with a fat body, and you don’t have to be on diets,” and it’s like-

Dianne:
What?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
They’re clenching their pearls. It’s like, “How dare you?” So the reason it turns into this trolling and this back and forth, and this anger is because it’s assaulting a part of their belief system and their moral standards. And so, that makes me understand a little bit more why they go so hard. But again, sometimes I have time and most of the time, I do not.

Dianne:
Yeah, protect your peace.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
I don’t have to engage with you. I actually have a, I saved it from my Stories because someone was in my DMs going crazy a few months back and putting clown pictures, like, “How dare you delete my comment instead of talking? Apparently, you don’t want to have an educated discussion.” And I was like, “Let me just say this. I don’t have to talk to you.”

Dianne:
Exactly. I don’t get this demanding of your time nonsense. I don’t get that.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
I had to pull the plug. I was like, “You want to argue. I don’t want to argue with you.”

Dianne:
I don’t have the time. I don’t have the bandwidth. I’m not interested.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
No desire. So, yeah, being very strict about your boundaries with your time and energy is something that I’m big on with the social media stuff because they will take you down.

Dianne:
They will try. They will try. They will try to take me down.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
They will.

Dianne:
It’s funny when people slide into my DMS, because here’s what you can do… I don’t know if everybody knows this, but you can go into your settings in Instagram and only have people who comment who follow you and who you follow.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Yes, yes.

Dianne:
And that way you get rid of the trolls. And if somebody is going to go to the hard work of following you, to troll on your page, then I will just delete those comments. And what will actually happen is those people will always slide into my DMs, say the exact thing that they said to you that they say to me.

Dianne:
And this is how I respond. This is what, and you feel free to use this if this speaks to you, anybody, “Wow. I don’t let you comment on my page, but here you are with the audacity to be in my DMs. I don’t want to talk to you on my page, and I don’t want to talk to you in my DMs. Be blocked and be blessed,” and then I just delete them.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Absolutely.

Dianne:
I am not going to argue with you. And I think it’s really just attention-seeking behavior.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
It is.

Dianne:
Because if you had something worthwhile going on in your life, you wouldn’t be looking to be coming for me on my page on something that I’m trying to share with the world that is based in making people feel better. Because dragging people down does what exactly?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Nothing. Nothing good.

Dianne:
Benefits who exactly?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
It makes the world a worse place.

Dianne:
Exactly. And we want to be in here in a place of love, and I really appreciate what you’re putting out into the world. So I want to ask you a question.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Thank you.

Dianne:
What does intentional well-being mean to you?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Ah, that’s a great question, actually. So I believe in health and wellness being an individual process, so I don’t believe in universal definitions. So when I work with clients that I’m health coaching, we talk about what is health for you? What does it look like in your life? So, for me, intentional well-being is all about… Which is funny, because intention is my word for 2020.

Dianne:
Nice, nice.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
It’s all about using the resources that you have and the knowledge that you have, the things you have access, to create a lifestyle that serves you. And so, that could be serving your mental health, if that’s going to therapy consistently, or maybe having a check-in schedule with your therapist monthly or quarterly.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
That can be managing your physical health, if that’s committing to a certain workout schedule or committing to making exercise a part of your whatever daily movement as opposed to like a targeted exercise program. But it involves addressing every aspect of your health and wellness, so mental, physical, spiritual, emotional. And, for me, it looks like getting up in the morning at a reasonable time, going to bed at a reasonable time.

Dianne:
I’ve been working on that in 2022. I’ve been working on that.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Yeah. I like to start my day without my phone. So I like to start my day with stretching and prayer and then a short meditation.

Dianne:
Nice.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
And then whatever exercise I want to try to squeeze in. And sometimes my exercise is 10 or 12 minutes, sometimes it’s 20 or 30, depending upon how the morning is looking and how energized I am. But it’s just about addressing… For me, it’s about being intentional about that alone time first to get myself together so that I can be a more patient mother. Because I have three little kids and a husband, and sometimes if they wake me up or the day starts when I’m chasing after them, I’m done for the day.

Dianne:
Right.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Because my mental health is fried.

Dianne:
Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
So, yeah, for me, it’s about taking that time for myself early on to try to hit a few different areas of my health so that the day goes a little smoother, and then I can adjust as needed.

Dianne:
You know what? I wish everybody had this attitude. You said something that really sparked my interest here. I love that you mentioned checking in with a therapist or taking care of your mental health. Because I know here in the black community that there’s a lot of stigma around taking care of your mental health or admitting you have mental health issues or seeking out professional care if you need that.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Yeah.

Dianne:
And I wish we could get to a point where we’re all talking about this more often, and that we’re all talking about being intentional with our well-being and facing those traumas. Walking the world as a black person, a person of color, a person in a traditionally excluded, marginalized, underestimated, however you want to frame that or reference that, is hard. And why would you not seek out tools that can help you navigate this world? I don’t understand our resistance against taking care of our mental health in the black community. Have you found this to be true?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Absolutely. Very true. I mean, I didn’t grow up with any notion of therapy being a thing.

Dianne:
Right, yeah.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
I didn’t recognize that was an option until I was an adult. And I met a good friend who I’m sure several of your listeners are familiar with. She’s Nedra Tawwab, so she’s the boundaries expert.

Dianne:
Yes.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
So she’s a good friend of mine. She’s lives here in Charlotte. And I met her before she wrote her book and people began to kind of recognize boundaries. But she was teaching me boundaries in our friendship early on, like in our late 20s.

Dianne:
Nice.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
So that helped me understand some things and helped me really see the value in mental health therapy. I didn’t know it was a thing. And growing up black, especially in the US, we go to the church for our mental health concerns.

Dianne:
Yes. We do that here too.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
You know?

Dianne:
Yes, yeah.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Which, it may get you so far, but I think it’s important that we recognize the people who have gone to school and educated themselves and can give you tangible tools outside of prayer, which prayer is obviously wonderful-

Dianne:
Yes.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
… but additional tools outside of that to manage your mental health. So I credit having friendships with people who are in that field to really understand the benefit. And, yeah, I’ve definitely seen a therapist. It’s about time for me to check in again, actually.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
During the pandemic, I think it became so clear how many of us really need that outlet and that support and someone just to talk to us one-on-one so that we can work through some things, we can say things to people, someone who doesn’t know us as well, things we can’t say to our partners or our friends.

Dianne:
Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
So, yeah, I found it to be a very stigmatizing thing, but I do think that the tide is turning, and it’s getting better. And it’s partially because of social media because therapists are now on this platform sharing, and people are having these aha moments like, “Wait a minute.”

Dianne:
Exactly.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
So it’s really, that’s definitely been a blessing, I’d say, of social media, and therapists being on there and being present.

Dianne:
You know what? I found my therapist on social media. She’s Thrive with Meghan.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
[inaudible 00:24:55].

Dianne:
I know. I found her on there. She was hosting a lot of stuff. I slid into her DMs, and I’m like, “You’re probably really busy,” but is there any way that I can speak to her? And the beauty of finding her on Instagram was not only is she black, which is another thing you don’t often see… I don’t see a lot of black physiotherapists or wellness and healthcare professionals. It was really wonderful to have a therapist who is black.

Dianne:
And I’m from Barbados. My whole history and lineage is from Barbados. My family’s from Barbados, emigrated to Canada, and my parents emigrated to Canada in the ’60s, and I was born here. She’s actually also from Barbados.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Oh, that’s so nice.

Dianne:
So she not only is black, but she gets the culture, right?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Yeah.

Dianne:
So that there are things that I don’t need to explain to her that I might have to explain to a white therapist. And I also find sometimes white therapists aren’t necessarily educated in the oppression or are helping us to sometimes live within oppression, which is not what we want to do. We want to be able to push back against that. So I think it’s important to have a therapist that can understand your worldviews and give you some concrete ideas. So I’m grateful for the platform to meet people like you, to meet other therapists. So that’s important.

Dianne:
So you said going to therapy, having that check-in point. Your other thing is exercise. And I’ve been reframing exercise for the last little bit because I find sometimes people are triggered by that. That exercise sometimes has a punitive connotation, that we’re punishing our bodies with exercise.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Yes, yes.

Dianne:
So I’ve been calling exercise lately intentional, joyful, mindful movement. So sometimes I say movement is intentional, meaning that I go for a run. I may be not loving this run, but I come from a family who has heart disease, so I know that this is going to help with that. And when I’m done running, I’m excited because I finished and it’s over and I feel good.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Because it’s done.

Dianne:
And it’s done. And then other times, I’m on my bike, which is also good for my cardiovascular health. And I’m plugged into my favorite spin instructor, and I’m plugged into my favorite playlist, and I’m living my best life on my bike.

Dianne:
And then people constantly ask me, how do you stay consistent? So how do you stay consistent in your joyful, mindful movement? I also love that you said it can be 11 minutes. It can be 12 minutes. It can be 20 minutes. It can be half-an-hour. It’s an all or something idea, not an all or nothing idea, right?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Oh, I love that, all or something, I love that. Yeah, so consistency for me, and I guess I’ll start this with a confession by saying when I started down the Health At Every Size path and walking away from diets, I did lose my consistency with exercise for a while because I was struggling to find a way to do it that made me feel good because it was always, always, attached to diet culture.

Dianne:
Yes.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
So it was always about how much you spent, how long the workout was, how many calories you burned, what you ate before, what you ate after, and I had to walk away from exercise. I had to walk away from like, “targeted, focused exercise” and try to find other ways to move that just made me feel good without any focus on what my body was doing. So I lost that for a minute.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
What’s been keeping me consistent now is that it’s… And to be clear, I’ve always loved exercise. I’ve always been into it. That has always been my thing. I was a cross country runner in high school. I ran a 25K in PT school. So exercise has always been a thing for me, but I still know that the root of it, again, came from either maintaining my body or changing my body.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
So being consistent now is more about the feeling. It’s like, when I move, I feel less stiff. And as a physical therapist, what you can’t be is over here stiff and hurting yourself when you’re trying to help patients.

Dianne:
Yes, 100%.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Because that’s not [crosstalk 00:28:42].

Dianne:
No, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s not helpful to your job.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Right. So I feel less stiff, and I feel more flexible, and I feel like I’m setting a really good example for my kids because I work out in my bedroom, on the other side of my bedroom in the morning. So when my kids get up, and they come in there, they look toward the bed. If I’m not there, they look toward the other side of the room where my mat is, and they’re like, “Oh, good morning, Mommy.”

Dr. Lisa Folden:
So I feel like I’m setting an example for them. And I want them to view fitness and intentional movement as something important to participate in. So that keeps me consistent. And the feeling after, like you said, when you’re done with that run, it’s like, “Yes. It’s over.”

Dianne:
I did it.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
That keeps me consistent because I like that feeling. And for someone who encourages health, because I’m a part of the Health At Every Size movement doesn’t mean that I put physical health on the back burner. It’s still very much important. We value being healthy in whatever state you can be because I also recognize health looks different from person to person.

Dianne:
Yes.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
So, yeah, it’s moreso the feeling behind it now that keeps me consistent because I don’t track my weight. I don’t track my measurements. I don’t have a smart watch. I don’t have a Fitbit or a MyFitness app, so it’s really just about the feeling. It all comes from here now. It’s like, “That felt good. My body feels good. And I want to keep feeling good, so I’ll keep doing it.”

Dianne:
I love that because what I hear you say is an intention has a place in your heart, so it’s a heartfelt experience. And I think, I wish we could shift people’s thought process around that. Because forever, fitness has been deeply tied, deeply tied, to diet culture. And when I learned that I could move my body just for the sake of moving my body, mind blown, mind blown. I just was like, “What? I can just do this because feels good?”

Dianne:
And I I’m a big believer in little bite-sized fitness snacks, or exercise snacks, or movement snacks, or the gift of 10 minutes. These are all things that I’ve come across on my path to figuring out my body and being in relationship with my body is that even if I just get up and do a little dance… I have a playlist that I have. I don’t want to say her name because then she’ll turn on and play my playlist.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
I got one over here too.

Dianne:
Exactly, right? And I’ll just say, “Play my favorite playlist.” And then I’ll just like… Behind me is my studio space, and I will dance my head off to something I listened to in high school. And the feeling of just being in your body and being in relationship with your body in a way that feels good is so life affirming, isn’t it?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
It is. It is so amazing. And I have the same, I’m the same way. Dance, for me, that is one way, I know that I can get some exercise through dance because I love it. And I’m talking everything, line dancing. I’m talking [inaudible 00:31:44]-

Dianne:
Whatever.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
… ballet. I’m talking twerking like all of it.

Dianne:
Yes. Us from the West Indies, we are the queen and kings of the twerk, and non-binary royalty of the twerk, let me tell you.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
I love it. Yes, absolutely agree. And you’re right, it’s so mind blowing because for so long, we just associated it with weight loss and everything else within diet culture. So there’s a freedom and a beauty that comes from exercise and intentional movement that it’s just unmatched for me. And I only experienced that once I shifted my thinking.

Dianne:
Oh, yeah, that was a game changer. I don’t have to move. I get to move.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
[inaudible 00:32:28].

Dianne:
And I also am very conscious that that’s a privilege. I’m very conscious-

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Absolutely.

Dianne:
… to roll out of my bed and move my body is a privilege. And you, as a physiotherapist know that more than anyone because you’re seeing people at all stages in their life. You’re seeing people with all kinds of abilities going on. And trying to find a place where somebody who is practicing in a body with a disability or living with a disability or a physical challenge, and having them find that place to be joyful in movement must be a challenge.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Oh, it’s such a challenge. But, like they say, when the road is harder, getting to that mountaintop is so sweet. It’s so beautiful to see it when it happens. But it can be very hard because, yes, we have this privilege of fully functional limbs, of fully functional mind. We’re not living in wheelchairs, we can do so many things. And we can unknowingly be a part of disablism.

Dianne:
Yes.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Like, “Oh, we can do this,” and not thinking about people who has to move in a different way. And so, yes, my work as a physical therapist, fortunately, keeps me very, very mindful of that. And so, I’m always, I have a course that I teach called Help Me Find My Healthy. And one of the modules is about exercise modification.

Dianne:
Nice.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
And in the module I give standard modifications, but I have a list of additional modifications for people who are in differently-abled bodies because I see it every day. And I want people to always feel like there is a space for them to be included. There are things that you can do, and then there’s obviously some things that you can’t do, but that doesn’t define your worth as a person. It doesn’t mean that you are less important, that you should be left by the wayside because there are things you can’t participate in.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
So I try to be very mindful of that. I’m certain I’ve had missteps, but as a physical therapist and someone who works in that world, it’s something that’s really, really important to me, so, yeah.

Dianne:
Agreed. I know. I’m currently teaching a 200 hour [inaudible 00:34:28] training. And one of my students uses a chair to get around in the world and has very limited mobility. And so, I wanted to discuss with her what are some of the ways that I can help you maybe visualize the pose? Because one thing about yoga teachings is we have a lot of different bodies, right?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Yes.

Dianne:
We have an energetic body, we have a spiritual body, all that. And those bodies are fully intact. Maybe your physical body may not be, may have its challenges, but your spiritual and your energy body is intact.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Yeah, I love that.

Dianne:
Right? so you can do those poses perfectly, however perfectly looks like in your mind, and those things are still firing in your body. That’s one thing I learned. So that if I think about my deltoid and squeezing my deltoid, those muscle fibers respond to the thought in my brain. I was like, mind blown.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
I love that. And that’s so true, and people don’t know that. People don’t know that. That’s awesome.

Dianne:
Right? And I just was like okay. So even if you have limited movement, thinking or seeing or visualizing yourself in these postures, makes those part of your muscles fire and interact with you. So I just think there’s so little that we know about the human body or so many ways that we have been misinformed and misled down a path that is directly linked to diet culture, that there’s all these other ways that we can move our body that aren’t only just physical. That are also emotional. That are also spiritual. It’s so full. If we could get out of diet culture for five, 10 minutes, the rest of our lives-

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Just five minutes. But yeah, we could live there.

Dianne:
Yeah, if we could only live outside of that space, right?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Yeah, absolutely.

Dianne:
So what is your favorite way to move? You said dancing. Are there other ways that just speak to your body and your heart?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Dance is probably my favorite, I must say. I like line dancing. I’m from Detroit. I live in Charlotte, North Carolina, but I’m born and raised in Detroit.

Dianne:
Listen, Detroit is down the end of my street.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
I know.

Dianne:
If I walk down to the end of my street and look over, I can see Detroit. I feel you. I feel like we’re cousins now.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
We are cousins now. When I was 19, do you know how much I frequented Canada?

Dianne:
I know. Everybody tells me that story. That is the truth though. That is the truth. When I was in university, [crosstalk 00:36:55].

Dr. Lisa Folden:
That was back before you needed a passport or anything.

Dianne:
No. Yep, just your driver’s license, and off you went. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
We are absolutely cousins. So, yeah, so being from Detroit, we call it hustling. It’s not line dancing. That’s kind of a everywhere else thing. But I hustled my butt off, okay? If there was a hustle, my cousins, that was our thing. So I just like to move and dance, that’s probably my favorite.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
I used to be a big runner. That was my thing for years. And after the first baby, it stopped feeling good. And that was well before I was understanding what health at every size looked like the anti-diet approach. But I recognized that something I used to love doesn’t feel good in my body anymore. No matter how many times I tried, or what shoes I’d wear, and so, I gave up, I gave up running. So I walked away from it, and it was sad because that used to be a real emotional thing for me, running.

Dianne:
Yeah, you really loved it.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
But dancing is definitely up there. And then if I had to pick a second one, and this is not one that I do often, but I love the idea of kickboxing, cardio.

Dianne:
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
I like the [crosstalk 00:37:57]-

Dianne:
The physicality of it.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Yes. I love punching and upper cut. And, I don’t know, I’m not really a fighter for real, but I really like it as far as the movement piece of it. I feel good when it’s over. I feel like badass, I guess, and strong. So, yes, I would say fighting with dance are the two things right now.

Dianne:
Yeah. And then, we’ll have to create some kind of a new movement modality called dance fighting or fighting dance or something like that where those two things are combined.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Twerk, twerk.

Dianne:
Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Twerk, twerk.

Dianne:
Chop, chop. Twerk, twerk, chop, chop. I just think that would be hilarious. That would be so much fun. I would go to that class. I would go to that class.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Me too.

Dianne:
Right? For real. So another question I have for you, and this is one I ask a lot because I feel like the wellness industry has really been co-opted and means something that requires a lot of money, requires a lot of time, has a very white facing kind of outward facing appeal. Like I see a lot of white women wellness where black folks and folks of color or queer folks are not included in that space. So what is, for you, what is the difference between well-being? Because I was really intentional with calling this podcast well-being versus the wellness podcast. What’s the difference between well-being and wellness to you?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Yeah. So I would love if they were the same, but I agree with you. I feel like wellness has been co-opted a bit. I still try to pull it back.

Dianne:
Right. That’s our job. We are here for it.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
I’m like my practice is called Healthy PhiT Physical Therapy and Wellness because wellness is still very important to me. But, yes, it has been sort of pulled away. So I would just say, I would say that the difference is now is just about the structure, capitalism in some ways, and making money and making things more flashy.

Dianne:
Yeah, like trendy.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Yeah. It’s like well-being is the heart of it, the feeling good, the doing good, the feeling good about yourself and others, and it’s all lovey and wonderful. And wellness is like it’s very evil cousin and sometimes who has those things in their heart. It’s in the bloodline, but very much how can we make money off of this? What can we sell? What can we create? How can we make people want to feel well, but still feel bad about themselves?

Dianne:
I was just going to say, how can we turn this to make them feel bad, so they’ll buy something more, right?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Yeah. So, to me, it’s just, it’s been eaten up by capitalism. How can we make this make more money? With wellness and falling under self-care, it’s not just about feeling good, but how much money can you spend? You can take yourself on a vacation. It’s like, yes, all those things can be lovely forms of self-care, but there are many free forms of self-care that require no money, no resources, no big house. So I just feel like wellness, because it’s been co-opted, it has become a money-making engine as opposed to being focused on the actual well-being of individuals.

Dianne:
I agree. I agree. I think that capitalism has very much co-opted the well-being space and, “Well, go get a massage, or go get a manicure.” And I tell people, well-being can be, you look around, your kids are occupied… This is what I used to do when my kids were little. I’d put up the gate, so they couldn’t escape out of the room. And we’d be in the family room, and I’d put on a movie.

Dianne:
And I would say to my little one who was maybe four at the time, Dylan was two, Nathan was four… I’d give them both a little snack, and I’d say to them, “Mommy’s going to lie down on the couch, and we’re going to watch a movie together. It’s going to be movie time. We’re going to watch a movie together.”

Dianne:
And they would be so enthralled in this movie that they would forget that I was even in the room. So I might doze off. So I would doze off on the couch, and I would say to my boys, “When the movie’s over, if Mommy’s asleep, come wake Mommy up.”

Dianne:
And that was my me time. I was like, they’re fully involved in their show. The two of them are watching it. They’ve got their little sippy cup and their snack. And now, I’m just going to take a minute to just be on the couch and wind down. And that was the kinds of things that were self-care for me. Because when they’re a little like that, you’re not sleeping, and they’re super busy. And my boys were just busy, busy, busy, busy, busy.

Dianne:
I just remember one time I went out for my girl’s 40th birthday party, and I had too much to drink. And I came home, and Alan went off to work, and I was still mom at 6:00 AM. I was just at the park with my big jug of water going, “I will never do this again with little children. Never do this again with little children.” But the good thing was that I could take of the park, put out a picnic blanket, sit on the blanket, and then watch them run around in the park and go, “Okay, mom’s over here sipping her water. I never did that again.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
I’m hydrating.

Dianne:
Yes. Oh, yeah.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
That’s so real though. And, yeah, I have three kids. They are, my son is six.

Dianne:
Busy, busy.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
So I very much understand when you talk about the busies. And my two daughters are eight and 10. And so, absolutely, sometimes my self-care is just sitting back watching them, just watching them engage. Because, one, it’s such a blessing and a privilege to be able to have children, to parent them, to be there for them. And so, as much as my self-care is often to be away from them.

Dianne:
Away from them. Yeah, I get it, 100%. Let’s be honest. Some days-

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Yeah. It’s also to be right in their faces and just looking at them grow and change. So self-care does not need to ever be something you spend money on. It can be. And if you have the means, absolutely do. If you can afford a weekend trip or a hotel stay, do it.

Dianne:
Please do it.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
I do it as much as I can. But finding the joy in the everyday and the little things… Some of my self-care is sitting on my deck. I just like looking at the trees and watching birds. And as I’ve gotten older, I turned 40 this year-

Dianne:
Oh, happy birthday. Way to go, yay, you!

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Thank you. And I’m like, “I went from 40 to 60 because I love to sit on the back porch and [inaudible 00:44:19].”

Dianne:
Yeah, it’s true. It’s true.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
And I’m happy drinking my tea, watching Netflix, laughing. Those are self care tactics that you just do throughout the day. If we buy into this wellness industry that’s been co-opted and we’re waiting on that next opportunity to do X, Y, and Z or waiting until I save up some money to go here or go there, that’s a pitiful and sad life because you’re always looking for something else. You have to try to find the joy and your self-care moments and the wellness or well-being in your daily life.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
So I’m a very big, I have a whole list, in my course, I have a whole list of free or cheap self-care options because we need them. And sometimes you just need someone to remind you, “Oh, that is self care. Oh, that is… ” Anything that makes you feel good is self-care.

Dianne:
Agree. That bears repeating. Anything that makes you feel good is self-care. And that includes, one of my self-care things to do is to enjoy a cupcake. I’m a big fan of carrot cake with the cream cheese frosting, and the carrot on top.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
That’s my thing, yeah.

Dianne:
Oh, if I get that, and make myself a nice cup of tea, I sit down, and I fully enjoy every moment of it without guilt, because eating is also self-care. Eating is nourishing your body. And eating what makes you feel good, whether it makes you feel good emotionally or physically, that is something we can also embrace. We got to let go of diet culture that demonize certain foods and this kind of thing. Because there should not be stress in eating.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
There should not be. And that has been one of the most beautiful realizations since I’ve joined the Health at Every Size movement, is that I can enjoy my food. It was always like fuel. Like we’re cars, so we fill up on gas. So it was either fuel or this tempting, guilty, sinful thing that I’m scarfing got quickly because I feel bad about it.

Dianne:
And shame. Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
And shame. And so, I enjoy my food.

Dianne:
That’s right.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
I don’t hide my food. It’s just, this is what I want. Today, I’m ordering lunch because it’s Thursday. I treat myself on Thursday.

Dianne:
Yes. You do it.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
And I’m like, I love it. I sit here, and I just enjoy every bite, and that has been beautiful.

Dianne:
It has been. I love that taking away the shame of what we’re eating. And the only way that I scarf down or hide food when I’m eating is if I don’t want to share it with my boys.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Share it. If I can finish this before [crosstalk 00:46:55]-

Dianne:
Before they see or they hear the package open, and they come from anywhere in the house. Did you open a pack? What are you eating?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
What’s that?

Dianne:
What’s that? And I have teenage boys now, and your day is coming, let me tell you.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
They still do that?

Dianne:
Oh my goodness. Oh, they do. And they are like, my son I’ll be literally eating something, and my teenage son will turn to me as I’m putting it in my mouth, he’ll pull the plate out from under me and say, “Are you still eating that?” Or his favorite one, “Are you going to finish that?” I’ll be literally biting into a sandwich. He will literally take it out of my hand and say, “Are you going to finish that?” And so, I just end up handing it to them because I think it’s kind of funny that they do it.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
That’s so cute.

Dianne:
But that’s why I hide. I close my office door because I want to eat this sandwich without my son… Literally bounces out of nowhere, and is like, “Are you going to finish that?” I’m like, “I had it in my hand. I was planning on eating it, but I guess if you want it.”

Dr. Lisa Folden:
You’re so sweet. I’m like, “No. Yes, I’m finishing it. It’s mine.”

Dianne:
Some days, or if I get something, I’ll just make an announcement, “I’m not sharing this with anybody.” If I just make an announcement-

Dr. Lisa Folden:
I do that. I do that. This is mine.

Dianne:
This is mine. You have yours. This is mine.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
I love it.

Dianne:
So how are you teaching your kids to participate in well-being? Because your children are smaller, you can really set the stage for changing the narrative of their life so that they don’t have to struggle like we did. How are you sharing that with your youngsters?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Oh, I’m trying so hard, but let me just say this. Even being in this space with kids this young, they still live in the world, so [crosstalk 00:48:34], she’s almost 11. My 11-year-old daughter, almost 11-year-old daughter, is still very much dealing with the changes in her body and not really liking things.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
So I’ve been frustrated because I’m like, “Dang it. You would think, me being in this space, and sharing and doing, she’d be good,” but she’s not. She’s not. She needs the same loving and encouragement that we all needed.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
So what I really try to do, the big thing with them is because they’re now noticing people’s bodies are different, and so one thing I try to do is normalize that for them. So I’m not just running around undressed or anything, but I definitely want them to feel comfortable in their skin, so I try to show them that I’m comfortable in my skin.

Dianne:
Nice.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
And I spend a lot of time really trying to encourage them to recognize the differences in bodies and see it as nothing being wrong, so someone who’s fatter, someone who’s thinner, someone who’s bigger, smaller, larger. My son’s kind of short for his age right now. So I just try to encourage them to respect body diversity.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
And that’s kind of just where we’re starting. I want them to respect their diversity and not to think there’s anything wrong if their bodies don’t look like someone else’s, or if someone they see has a very different looking body than the norm of what they see… Because if they can understand that now, they won’t turn into this stigma like, “Oh, she’s really, really thin. Oh, she’s really, really big.” It’s no big deal. It’s just the way God made each of us.

Dianne:
Nice.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
So that’s where we’re starting. And then wellness, as far as the well-being, I like them to see me moving, so they have their own movement practices. My kids often come into my room… They’re big on yoga, which is funny, because I’m not. They come into my room, and they take the exercise mat, and they start doing some stretches and yoga poses, and I’m like, “Okay.” So I just encourage them to listen to their bodies, respect everyone’s bodies, and then respect their own bodies.

Dianne:
I love that.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
This may have to be edited, but I think my client is here. My 10 o’clock.

Dianne:
No worries. That is a good place to end our chat right now. This is absolutely real life. Lisa, can you tell us where we can find you? I will share all of this in your show notes. And is there anything that you would like to share with our audience right now pertaining to what you do?

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Yes. So I am a physical therapist, like we discussed, but I also offer virtual health coaching. I specialize in helping busy moms find their healthy. So the goal is to help you understand that health doesn’t have to look like what it looks like on your neighbor or your mother or your sister or your friend. And we can make wellness and health a part of your everyday life. It doesn’t have to be this extra thing you carve out a whole nother space for and buy new clothes for. We can make health and wellness a part of your everyday being.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
So that’s what I love to do. I do have spots open in my Help Me Find My Healthy course right now. You can find me on the internet. I’m at www.healthyphit.com, and phit is actually spelled P-H-I-T.

Dianne:
P-H-I-T, which I love.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Yes. And then I’m on Instagram at Healthy PhiT, also P-H-I-T. I’m on Facebook and Twitter and all those other sites. I just don’t actively go on them. If you want to talk to me, you can find me on Instagram.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
And for moms, I don’t know how many mom know about this, but the Peanut app is an amazing space for moms to kind of engage. It’s like Clubhouse, but just for moms. And I’m actually on there, and I host biweekly pods on different topics related to health and wellness. And I have one coming up tomorrow actually at 11:00 AM Eastern Standard Time. So find me there.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Connect with me wherever. I talk to people in my DMs, so if you want to have a chat or discuss something, please feel free.

Dianne:
Thank you so much for being a part of The Intentional Well- Being Podcast. And I want to thank Dr. Lisa for all the ways that she shows up for our community. All right, everybody, we will catch you next time. Thanks, everyone. Bye.

Dr. Lisa Folden:
Thank you. Bye.

Dianne:
Hello, everyone. I just want to thank you so very much for being part of my podcast community here and listening to the people I love to talk to and being part of the world that celebrates diversity, equity, and inclusion here on The Intentional Well-being Podcast where we’re going to dive into some deep topics.

Dianne:
If you enjoyed this podcast, please go over to Apple Podcasts and rate it, give it a thumbs up, like it, share it, comment. It really helps this podcast out. And I want to platform folks who don’t ordinarily get platform and share the stories of so many of us in the world of wellness and well-being.

Dianne:
I want to thank you so much. You can find this podcast anywhere where podcasts are broadcast. And you can always contact me through my Instagram pages at Dianne Bondy Yoga Official, or you can shout out to me at [email protected] Thanks so much for being part of my community, and I’ll catch you next time.